WebNotes – Experts on Capitalizing on the Ideas of Others
Sometime in May I wrote a review about WebNotes, comparing their annotation tool with that of their (back then) main competitor Diigo. In that article I explained how WebNotes could be used by PR professionals to generate PDF reports for their clients. I criticized the launch of a Pro service by the same company, because in my view the quality of what they had to offer in May was not ready as a premium service.
WebNotes didn’t even consider that their service could be of use for PR professionals in May. As a matter of fact, I also stated in my article that neglecting to incorporate the obvious PR value of using such a service as a benefit was either oversight or limited view of possibilities for such an application. If you look at the exchange of comments between WebNotes representative Alex King and myself, you will also note that the idea of media monitoring and generating reports for PR customers was also a foreign concept for the company.
My partner, Phil Butler, discussed with WebNotes’ CEO Ryan Damico and Alex King prior to my review, and featured the service on SitePoint when this was just in beta. Later, Phil even made them an offer for Pamil Visions to become their agency of record (which they refused, apparently in order to pick our brains for free), but this is beside the point.
The message I am trying to convey here is that WebNotes used an idea and failed to give credit where credit was due. My idea brought them an improved service and coverage on TechCrunch – where Finally, A Web Annotation Product That Makes Sense: WebNotes PR by Erick Schonfeld read like a raving review. Coverage on TechCrunch is a great thing for any tech innovation, especially for one like WebNotes. However, the review was made by a journalist who doesn’t seem to know what a PR report should look like or that such a report needs to be professional.
In all honesty, Erick Schonfeld seems to believe that the sole component of a press clip report is reduced to quotes and links, plus some notes from the PR professional who compiles it. Of course, this is probably a view that was fed to him by the WebNotes team and not by a PR expert. Only a beginner would present to a customer such a report. A professional PR will also include graphic reports by keyword, sentiment analysis (reports by positive and negative opinion), popularity analysis, demographics, etc. Guess what: software that monitors the media and tracks coverage, while also providing all the necessary graphics already exist: Nielsen BuzzMetrics, Vocus News On-Demand, Alterian’s SM2 by Techrigy and many others.
Now, if someone wanted a DIY PR reporting aspect of WebNotes’ nature, this service might suffice to provide at least a partial solution to client reporting. But then, so could a copy-paste and PDF print – which are actually free. As for how well WebNotes Media Monitoring works, to set up alerts and track your client coverage or import your own RSS feeds, this remains to be seen. But think about how many such services already exist: BrandsEye for example is priced 1 USD per month to deliver in depth media monitoring summaries twice daily!
With WebNotes you have to pay 35 USD monthly to manually visit every page that appears in your WebNotes Media Monitoring; highlight whatever you want and then add comments (web notes). You have to set up categories manually, and then you have to return to your research to organize your material. To make a long story short: WebNotes is a DIY research tool that allows you to create PDF files out of web annotations, but when it comes to professional PR use, it is not there yet!
What puzzles me is that Alex King even asked if it was OK to contact me for further feedback:
“Well as we make modifications and iterate new features, I’d love to get your feedback. Would that be okay by you?” he wrote in a comment.
Contacting me for feedback was OK. What is not OK is to capitalize on my idea and not even send a courtesy email saying at least: “Mig we now have a product for PRs. Why don’t you test it and let us know what you think?”
I didn’t test the product yet. I made all the evaluations above based on the introduction video made my WebNotes and on the details on the features page. I will sign-up for a two weeks trial, and I promise you a professional in-depth PR review, like you’ll never read anywhere else on the Web.
In the meanwhile, Alex King, don’t you think I deserve at least an explanation? Something like “oh, at WebNotes we always thought about creating a product for PR, even before your review in May.” Or what about, “Sorry Mig, we just forgot where this idea came from.”
Idea theft… you know what? It’s not ethical, it’s not professional and it has the tendency to destroy reputations. Here it goes, WebNotes, your well-deserved Everything PR Goofy Award – I suppose it is very clear at what you exceed!
About the Author
Mihaela Lica is senior partner at Pamil Visions PR and editor at Everything PR. She is a widely cited authority on search engine optimization and public relations issues (BBC News, Force for Good, Reuters and others), with an experience of over 7 years in online PR and SEO. Mihaela writes for SitePoint, Search Engine Journal, and other online publications. She also maintains a personal blog called eWritings. Follow Mig on Twitter or send her an email at mig [at] pamil-visions [dot] com.
Hey Phil,
Its been a while.
Just wanted to know what Veer has achieved so far.
Box office India is saying its below ...
I take it I am not your hero then.
Always,
Phil 
I read this article and i must say you ____. 
I agree wholeheartedly - but what can we do? I only wrote the story to announce the puzzling news - ...
Thanks for helping spread the word about HAPPO Kristen! As you point out "The Internet has made it even easier ...
What is with our society? Sex in a public bathroom is now a desirable and even promoted commodity? ...
Comment by Tito Puente on 25 September 2009:
Mihaela, the company met with many PR firms and teams, and many of us shared similar feedback. We met with them before you. Did you also invent press releases? I’m sure you helped guide their thinking (or simply validated some thoughts they heard from others), but to think you created their product and concept is not only inaccurate, it’s ignorant and the thinking of a delusional person who over values their worth. Shame on you for slandering a group of people for taking feedback and using it to build a product that should be helpful to many professions, including PR. What a terrible, pompous post on your part. Shame on you.
Comment by Mihaela Lica on 25 September 2009:
Tito, I seriously don’t believe ANY word you say. And if you follow the exchange of comments between myself and Alex King in the post I mentioned you will see that WebNotes DID NOT have the idea BEFORE. Or was he keeping it a secret and playing goofy in the comments? I have my doubts.
Comment by Mihaela Lica on 25 September 2009:
So I did an IP checkup on you, Tito, and here is what my new “delusional” findings are: you come from within CIC (Cambridge Innovation Center) which is a fewblocks from Memorial Drive. You do not have the courtesy to tell us your real name and you link to a fake site developed by a Miguel… How is that for a “shame on you” call?
Comment by Phil Butler on 25 September 2009:
Tito, They sure are piling it high there at Cambridge these days. What sort of advanced technical degree did this inappropriateness and ill advised gibberish come from, “Pit Viper PR 101?”
You know, there is nothing wrong with emulating or using other people ideas (even the infinitesimally small parts you suggest), but I think the problem here is one of acknowledging these things. I am sure that Mihaela did not want to get paid for these suggestions, or else she would not have posted them in an article. Just like the ones I freely gave Webnotes’ CEO via various communications. It is a little beyond the realm of imagination that these ideas about using Webnotes for PR came about indpendently, and she surely had no insight into your super secret plans. So, you have the paradox; “Who thought this up first?”
She did not say she created their product, in case MIT stopped using reading as a fundamental for entry (I know maybe you went to another college and ended up defending the Cambridge connection). She just said basically that it is not ethical to use these things and not even say “howdy do”, in Good Ole Boy terms.
A better was to come here to address this would have been to say; “Gee, you know we may have skipped that part, but appreciate it none the less,” or something like that. As for arrogance, I think you are confusing some righteous indignation there. Also, on the arrogance, when Ryan Damico saw the article in question, he pretty much took the arrogant; “Bettah listun to massah Ryan” approach with me, chastizing me to do this and that the next time “we” (which it was Mihaela’s article not mine) saw a problem.
Just so there is full transparency here, I was excited about the possibility of Webnotes early on, and as mentioned by Mihaela, had some discussion about helping the company as a business proposition. That possibility never matured obviously. No big deal. But, I did help them with ideas and as best I could some market and competitor analysis in as far as I could. No charge no harm no foul. There was a sort of relationship there, a positive one, which obviously could not withstand the weight of criticism, or even viable suggestion (as we see now). No problem.
The problem is people not acknowledging people. I have no doubts that Webnotes approached lots of people for ideas, that methodology was evident early on too. I just do not think this idea came primarily from either the minds at Webnotes, or some PR pitch people, this is my opinion. Sorry. As for slandering people who “now admittedly” take information and use it, given all the evidences here and there, it sure looks like a copy cat to me. Sorry on that note too. If Webnotes is willing to share the correspondences which led to these revelations, then we can tell a more positive story about this. Until then, I see no reason to think that a service which comes out 3 months after an article describing and suggesting the said service, from the same company, should not be construed as at least a partial taking of an idea without acknowledging the entity who offered it.
Always,
Phil
Always,
Phil
Comment by Max on 25 September 2009:
I’m not sure I get what the fuss is? They didn’t say “Thank You”? You provided a criticism they took your advice and made their product better. Imagine how many people call up their senator or rep. to say “I think you should do this…” then their delegate takes their advice but doesn’t credit them, whats the big deal?
To turn the tables, you have two images in your article, and give no credit to the creators or sources of those images.
This stuff happens all the time, sure a “thank you” would be nice but this column just an unnecessary angry rant
Comment by Mihaela Lica on 25 September 2009:
If I knew who made those images I’d give credit, Max. I have the graphics on my PC in huge collection of humor cartoons I received in time from friends via email. If you find the original source I would be more than glad to give the deserved credit. As far as I was told, they are public domain.
As far as the “thank you” is concerned, yes, I expected that. Because my partner, Phil Butler, was one of the first to promote them, and in the post I mentioned before, although I was a bit negative, I was also only trying to help.
The big deal, and yes I am angry, is that not only they took the idea, but that they were giving directives to my partner about what I should write in a review and what not! If the review in case pissed them off so much – I have all the discussion between Ryan Damico and Phil to prove this – then why did they take the idea?
Comment by Ryan Damico on 25 September 2009:
Hi Mihaela, first and foremost, thank you for all of your time and help. I think there may be a bit of a misunderstanding here — WebNotes spent months researching different market verticals, interviewing our users, and speaking with dozens of PR firms before deciding to enter this market. While we appreciated the suggestions you made in your earlier post, the idea for a PR version of WebNotes had been seeded long before then.
We look forward to hearing your constructive feedback when you get around to trying WebNotes PR out!
Sincerely,
Ryan Damico
CEO, WebNotes
Comment by Deborah on 25 September 2009:
It’s not a very good move for a company to take an idea from a PR agency and run with it, without paying credit where credit is due.
Just because there was no charge for your advice does not entitle them to take full credit for it.
It seems to me that you are owed an apology, and perhaps a little plug to your agency for coming up with the idea, especially considering it was offered for free.
Comment by Phil Butler on 25 September 2009:
Thanks Deb, Well, this would be nice, but as you can see it does not appear to be forthcoming. No one can truly say where an idea comes from, but given advice and good intentions toward so many (and in this case Webnotes) simple courtesy or something seems right. It seldom works out that way though.
Thanks for your kind, and correct assessment of the situation.
Always
Phil
Comment by Tito Puente on 25 September 2009:
What does me living in Cambridge have to do with anything, you racists? Congratulations on looking up an IP address. Are you saying s Mexican-American can’t live in a wealthy zip code, or attend an esteemed university like MIT? I’m in shock at your remarks. And, yes, mi amigo Miguel built a great Website that I helped along as a project many years ago, and again I am confused as to how that is relevant. We had great fun with it.
And now I can’t read? English is my third language, after Spanish and French, in terms of literacy, and I very much appreciate you pointing that out. I met with WebNotes before you said you gave them “your idea” (as you wrote in bold: MY IDEA), so I was defending some local smart guys that built a pretty interesting product based on some intuitive feedback by you, and me, and many others. That said, you both, Mihaela and Phil, seem to be racist, self-rightous idiots. I can not believe that the location of my IP address combined with my nationality makes me disingenuine. What idiots you are.
Luckily for you, I am now off to fight Taco Bell as I was in a focus group for their hard shell tacos, and said “what would happen if you wrapped a soft shell around this,” and now have to accuse them of stealing the concept of the Chalupa from me.
Shame on you both, sincerely.
Comment by Mihaela Lica on 25 September 2009:
Tito, if that’s your real name (you are very fortunate to be named after one of the greatest artists who ever lived), I am a Romanian native, so Latin at origin, like you – if you really are a Mexican. So get real, I am by no means against Mexicans, or ANY Latinos for that matter. I checked your IP because of your tone, and what I meant by that was that you either personally know the people you “defend” and have a vested interest, or you are one of them. Your IP was too close to their headquarters. Clear? In your next comment, I advise you watch your language though. Calling me a self-righteous idiot doesn’t change anything. It’s actually only detrimental for WebNotes – from your comments being very clear that you are associated with them.
Comment by Mihaela Lica on 25 September 2009:
@Ryan Damico – I expected such a response Ryan, and let’s say that I believe you. What I don’t understand is why did Alex make no reference to it back in May? My article stands online as the only and the first ever suggesting that WebNotes should be used for PR. Believe me, it’s not my intention to hurt you. I am hurt because Alex didn’t have the courtesy to invite me to test and review the service though. That’s actually all the “thanks” I expected. You know that both Phil and I offered to help in more than one occasion.
Comment by Phil Butler on 25 September 2009:
Hi Ryan, Now that is a gauged and appropriate response. Misunderstandings are common things. Mihaela offered that suggestion in good faith, and I guess when it came to fruition (however this was achieved) it shocked here that no one mentioned it in a mail or anything. The tone of the conversation on her suggestion did not help either, as the justifiable criticism was handled much like this other guy who comes from the Cambridge side of the river just doors down from your offices??? Go figure I guess.
Any way, thanks for some clarification here, and we do wish your development the best as we do so many others.
Always,
Phil
Comment by Phil Butler on 25 September 2009:
Max, Now there is a good point and one which take to heart. We sometimes credit images and other times not, but we should always. Except for when we link to the sources for news bits and use their images maybe? No, you are right, every time if possible. I will issue a directive to this effect to all our authors and account people.
See, this kind of discourse is productive. We are not always right either. In the case of Webnotes, the flavor of the conversation behind the scenes, and issues which the average reader may not know about, do play a role however. There is no need to go into all that, as your point is well taken. All I will say beyond that, is it would be a better world if people thanked one another more. Including us.
Always,
Phil
Comment by Phil Butler on 25 September 2009:
Tito, We thought that name was a made up one honestly. Or, one intended to reflect this person of fame. I actually like Tito alot. Any way, and I hope I do not further offend you, I personally thought your identity and comment was a smartass Cambridge joke on whoever. Sorry, but the honest truth. Was it?
No seriously, I was actually thinking of MIT spitting out lesser qualified people with regard to their ideals, morals, and attitudes rather than any suggestion that someone from a Latin speaking country having issues (or non-issues with language). Sorry on that account too.
Well, I hope that clarified my thoughts somewhat. You have to take into context all that has been said in the post too. Of course you could not know that (unless of course you are sitting next to a Webnotes founder? Still nebulous sometimes, this identity thing. But, that is my ugly picture up there, bad and old as it is. Go ahead, pick on me for being senile and not recognizing true technological genius when I see it.
Always,
Phil
Comment by Liliana Dumitru-Steffens on 26 September 2009:
Isn’t it strange that all Tito, Max and Ryan are from Boston?
Comment by Max on 26 September 2009:
Liliana,
I’m sure if you wrote an article criticizing Coca Cola you’d get a lot of responses from Atlanta. No I don’t find it strange.
Comment by Phil Butler on 27 September 2009:
Max, come on. If we wrote article criticizing Coca Cola we would get a lot of responses from 14 year olds saying they love sugar and that they do not believe caffiene and additives are bad for them. It just so happens that someone 5 doors down from Webnotes’ offices, also ironically named after a great Hispanic talent, and with infinate knowledge of not only Webnotes immeasurable worth, but their staff’s unblemished and altruistic character, comes to comment?
Webnotes is sort of like someone adding glue to some little pieces of paper, coloring them blue, and then trying to convince the waking world that somehow everything from cancer research to CIA cryptology missions is going to be changed forever.
What is more, it sometimes appears the developers of these “sticky notes” are looking outside the headquarters at Langley through the trash for ideas to validate the whole process. I just finished reading some “studies” provided by Webnotes which to be honest, amount to Mommy Blogger type paid reviews of a product using words like “adorable” (but the quasi-scientific variants) to rave about this platform.
A study about raising productivity for students at a college by 68 percent, proved by just saying it? “Our students saved so much time using Webnotes that I just graduated them in half the time!” Good lord.
Sometimes I get this vision of startup companies working out of the local Internet Cafe, the founders drinking beer and playing WOW while they embrace their own inestimable worth in some sort of mutual gratification brotherhood.
No one can really say for sure about these things. Human intent and character is only visible after some time usually. But, in our business appearances mean a lot. What if all our criticism was just a way of pointing at a better way of doing things? Just about every step Webnotes has taken coincides with some tid bit of advice me (or it looks like several others) have contributed. Whether or not these value suggestions were derived from these conversations or not is conjecture, but for me personally the “convoluted” or mediocre embodiment of the ideas is pitiful.
I cannot spend too much more time talking about this now. I actually hope you or Diigo, or someone comes up with the end product that is implied here. The point is, I doubt it will ever happen because of some of these issues. Believe that or not, take it for all it is worth. You probably have the capability to actually make a great tool. But, I think the need or pressure to be successful at any cost is hampering this development.
Just because TechCrunch makes a decent mention of a product, does not mean it will ever be a realized dream (if there ever was one). You have to make significant change and work toward dynamic innovation. Copying Diigo, grabbing some hype along the way, or rationalizing the nebulous worth of an underdeveloped tool will not work.
This is just my opinion. I hope everyone can get past the seemingly aggravated nature of the conversation, and go to a better place.
Always,
Phil
Comment by Liliana Dumitru-Steffens on 27 September 2009:
Coca-Cola is too big and too important to make the kind of comments you and Tito made. I expect anyone associated with that company to at least have the courtesy Ryan Damico appears to have. Unfortunately you and Tito shaded his intervention. You guys were rude and offensive, immature. WebNotes still has a chance with Ryan, I hope you two are not part of the team though.
On the other hand, talking with PR companies about giving them WebNotes licenses is not that same as developing a service fully dedicated to PR professionals, or is it, Ryan?
Comment by Matt Keegan on 28 September 2009:
Simple business courtesy would have had WebNotes crediting Pamil Visions for assisting them in their endeavor, but I guess they’re thinking is that you’d be sending them an invoice following that announcement.
I’ve given away tons of free advice over the years, but I’ve become much more careful of late as too many people want a free ride without paying a fare. Sounds like WebNotes is one of those kinds of customers.
Comment by Mihaela Lica on 28 September 2009:
They were never a customer, Matt. Phil interviewed them for SitePoint, then later I reviewed their product, back then mediocre. However, Phil and Ryan had long chats about WebNotes – you know Phil, he is always trying to help – and how to approach the market. Phil gave them many ideas and proposed them a business association, which never came through. It’s funny that you mentioned an invoice – I don’t expect them to pay anything for the review I made. It was not called for, but the idea of using either WebNotes or Diigo as PR tools was there FIRST, in a time when WebNotes was contemplating selling site-licenses to PR people, and not a fully integrated service.
Right now I am testing their so-called PR tool and I am not impressed. Nothing really changed, except that they added some tweeting functionality, emailing, and RSS.
Comment by Max on 30 September 2009:
Sorry to troll, but…
1. The only association I have with web notes is that a friend of a friend got me a beta invite 9 months ago (which is probably related to my geographic proximity). I don’t work for them, rarely use the service, and have never had any association with them.
2. Looking back at my 2 comments, I cant say that either are rude or childish. I’d like to think that I’m being open minded about the issues you raise and just don’t agree with them, perhaps I played devils advocate, but then again perhaps you all are suffering from group think.
No need to respond, both of our arguments are frivolous. I have no intention of revisiting this page.
Comment by Phil Butler on 30 September 2009:
Max, sorry to hear you are fed up with us. We are not trying to be hard on anyone, or overly opinionated. The fact is that most people have not had the contact we have with so many of these startups. That being said, we are not the “end all” authorities either, but educated ones at least. Webnotes is trying to sell something they do not even have yet in my opinion. TechCrunch went out of bounds even accepting the potential for PR or other uses, and out of their area of expertise too. There are so many tools that do a better job our there. This is not to say that Webnotes could be a great research and reporting tool, it is just not there yet. None of the aggregators are.
Come back and play devils advocate all you want, we are just a little sensitive to trolling and would be experts sometimes. There are so many
Always,
Phil